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Previous Next Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / Clones ,Clones everywhere!! (770 hits)
- - By Neptune (**) [us] Date 2010-12-28 06:13
I just want to know one thing.Is playchess going to do anything about it?
What should be done about it?
Playchess use to be a place , where honest engine chess could be enjoyed by all.Now the word "USE" seems to be a sad truth.
All opinions are welcome.
Parent - By Labyrinth (***) [us] Date 2010-12-28 06:22
=
Parent - By Overpoint (*) [us] Date 2010-12-28 06:29
> I just want to know one thing.Is playchess going to do anything about it?
> What should be done about it?
> Playchess use to be a place , where honest engine chess could be enjoyed by all.Now the word "USE" seems to be a sad truth.
> All opinions are welcome.
This is the big question we are all waiting for an answer to. I am playing with a Rybka 4 engine and I can't seem to hit 2700 anymore. I have an i7 920 OC to 4450 mhrtz and it does not seem to matter in that room anymore. I get beat by duals running clones. If your going to allow clones in playchess then make it fair for all to run whatever engine they want or else clean up the clones out of there and make it equal again.
Overpoint.
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (****) Date 2010-12-28 09:27
What makes you think they are allowed? Several are deleted every day. Anyone found renaming will lose all their accounts. Rather than crying about it prove to me you are playing against a rename.
Parent - - By Miroslav Kvíčala (**) [cz] Date 2010-12-28 18:38
You don´t have absolutly no rights to delete someones account, first of all people who are playing in engine room are chessbase customers and the second reason is that there isn´t any proof or court decision that these engines are illegal??? No, nothing like that. The question should be: why are people using these engines? The main reason is very clear. Moreover how can be said that some engine is clone when the engine is the world´s strongest without any doubt?
Parent - By Harvey Williamson (****) Date 2010-12-28 18:41 Edited 2010-12-28 18:47
You are a member of a Private club you have a choice to obey the rules or not. If you have Premium membership you will probably only lose the ability to play games so you can still use the other benefits. We could change the rules to say only Hiarcs allowed :-) However most of my time is spent defending the interests of Rybka.
- - By Testo (*) [de] Date 2010-12-28 10:31
I'm 100% of their opinion Harvey ! ! !
This is precisely the point.many cry about clone, but none can prove it.
2 weeks ago I was playing a tournament in Machineroom A.it was a non rybka tour and I played with Critter 0.90.
( Hardware: 980X @ 4,3ghz ) unfortunately, appears only 3.34 ghz by chessbase
I do not know why ?
with only 128mb hush, my kn/s very high.
suddenly I was attacked by a player.His words : " you play renamed engine" ! "This is not Critter" !
suddenly were added 3 more players and say the same.I was shocked and tried to explain, this is real Critter 0.90 !
No chance: TD believes these claims and kicked me out.I had done anything illegal
One week later:
a normal tour with all engines.3+0 Blitz Tour.
i play Rybka 4 !
after only 4 games,is in the chat "you are out"
I asked why????
the answer from TD : " you play clone" !
incomprehensible ! again I did anything illegal.
"as they come to it" ? was my question. No information and no real Answer from TD it got ! TD kicked me out again !
at the moment there is a phobia of clones and innocent players are being attacked.
Regards
Parent - By Ray (***) Date 2010-12-28 11:57
> at the moment there is a phobia of clones and innocent players are being attacked.
And blame the cloners for that, they have all but destroyed computer chess.
Parent - - By gaard (**) Date 2010-12-28 13:32
If that is the case, I would demand my money back and not give them any more of my business.
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (****) Date 2010-12-28 13:51 Edited 2010-12-28 13:55
So do I ban all tournaments run by other members? If you want full time paid sys ops available 24/7 and someone else to go through all games looking for Clones membership of the engine room will probably cost about £10 a day. The number of users who use it is very small compared to the rest of Playchess.
Parent - - By Neptune (**) [us] Date 2010-12-28 14:26
Perhaps Harvey, and anyone for that matter, can explain in detail the best way to prove, we are playing a clone, and present said proof to Harvey.!
Parent - - By Alien-51 (*) Date 2010-12-28 14:50
i see clone engines every day at playchess... one of the sysop saw it and the sysop log off quick....why?? no idea
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (****) Date 2010-12-28 14:58
How do you know they saw it?
Parent - By Alien-51 (*) Date 2010-12-28 15:22
not u... another sysop because i mention the clone engine in chatting room and he saw me saying it at chatting and he log off quick...
Parent - - By Alien-51 (*) Date 2010-12-28 15:24
how do i know it?.. cause i know him
Parent - By Harvey Williamson (****) Date 2010-12-28 15:30
I know lots of people does not mean they always read what I write.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Bronze) [us] Date 2010-12-28 14:48
There is a very simple solution to all this.
End the witch-hunts. Acknowledge the state of the world today. Stop torturing the language: stop calling programs clones. Restore freedom and sanity.
Alternately...
if developers want people to stop hacking their software, then they ought to do things to make hacking very difficult.
if servers don't want people using particular programs, then oblige engines to be fingerprinted in some way and bust them before they can play a single game...but don't kill their accounts, that is in effect convicting them by association without due process. They paid for their serials!
The main thing is to stop the paranoia and suspicion! Stop accusing innocents, stop punishing (in real, financial terms) people whose only crime is wanting to play a program Chessbase does not approve of!
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (****) Date 2010-12-28 14:51
If they are proved to have renamed an engine they will get the boot. Some do not do it very well and the engine still outputs its real name during a game. There are other methoda to find them as well and other sanctions. My favourite is leaving their account but not allowing them to play any games for a period of time.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Bronze) [us] Date 2010-12-28 15:18
In the end, Chessbase's current posture on all this will be seen to be untenable. There is no such thing as stability, and holding back "clones" is just a transitory thing. The fact is that technological evolutions as well as improvements to software create an ever-shifting set of conditions, within which a commercial firm navigates and attempts to shape the status quo to the extent that it can. Thus your current function, Harvey, is to shape reality by disallowing those engines that do not meet Chessbase's standards. In due course new conditions will emerge and Chessbase's policies will of necessity shift again.
But some person or persons decompiled Rybka, and this information for better and worse is now public. You can't put that genie back in the bottle. While Chessbase is a big player in the computer chess field, it cannot do much to obstruct the dissemination of truth any more than the Soviets could quash samizdat. The truth right now is that there is at least one engine that at any time control can defeat the five-years-running champion on equal hardware. I think even Vas would acknowledge it, albeit reluctantly.
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (****) Date 2010-12-28 15:22
> your current function, Harvey, is to shape reality
Excellent ;-)
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Bronze) [us] Date 2010-12-28 15:40
Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing. - Orwell
Parent - - By Neptune (**) [us] Date 2010-12-28 16:05
So what your saying is the world is going down the cosmic toilet.And chess base is no different.You appear to be a fatalist Nelson,(The doctrine that all events are predetermined by fate and are therefore unalterable).I on the other hand i am a pragmatist(a straightforward practical way of thinking about things or dealing with problems, concerned with results rather than with theories and principles)There is no reason for the playchess engine room to go down the preverbial toilet,unless we let it.The programers are haveing a field day in there testing the boundries ,and seeing how far they can push the envelope of common decency and sportsmanship.Talk is cheap gentleman,the time is now for action. We just can't LET, it go on like the Ostrich, with its head stuck in the dirt.Nothing is predetermined here ,its up to us to shape the destiny of the engine room.
...
Parent - By BOARDSCRATCHER (*) [gb] Date 2010-12-28 16:33
Are we reading too much into this?
I am just running a tournament with the clone and yes it is bashing Rybka.
It looks like the timings have been better tuned for quick play.
I have now started games at longer time contols and Rybka is bashing the clone
more games will be required to prove this.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Bronze) [us] Date 2010-12-28 16:36
An intriguing post, but I am not sure what you are advocating. It doesn't really matter, though.
There are two sides to this argument. I can definitely understand Chessbase's and Harvey's. They are trying to protect a franchise that has been violated by unsavory characters, and now others are exploiting for their own ends. The are trying to protect livelihoods that advance human knowledge and creativity and could not exist in their present form without a commercial framework.
On the other side, I know what I see on unrestricted engine rating lists and in private testing. I deplore computer chess becoming bitterly factionalized. I deplore truth being smothered. I deplore freedom being restricted. Most of all, I deplore non-commercial human creativity and progress being stifled. If the cat is already out of the bag you can't slam the clubhouse door on all other developers.
Is the above contradictory and morally muddled? Sure. But I am comforted by this: ten years from now the computers we have (or have access to) will be incomparably stronger than those we have now. Chess engines will be much more advanced. What is going on today will seem as remote to computer chess enthusiasts of 2020 as the War of Spanish Succession.
Parent - By Neptune (**) [us] Date 2010-12-28 16:44
:The peace of Utrecht
From 1706 onwards the question of how and when to make peace and on what terms would dominate politics. To most of the contemporary observers Louis XIV scored a final victory at the negotiation table when peace was made in Utrecht in 1713. This was however only true relative to how the situation had looked in 1708. Overall the settlement nearly fitted the objectives the Alliance had originally set out to achieve. The only real difference was that England now gained most of advantages in stead of sharing them with her allies.
Effects of the Spanish Succession War
It is probably impossible to determine in how far the present has been affected by the events of these 15 years. Perhaps we can suppose some major effects: It is probable that Canada was lost to France due to the loss of some territories in North America. There is also little doubt that this war laid the foundations for the Anglo-Saxon empire and domination of the world. Thirdly: the overexertion of France, the further erosion of traditional political structures and the apparent success of the English parliamentary structure probably hastened the outburst of the French Revolution.
Parent - By Neptune (**) [us] Date 2010-12-28 21:06
I Totaly agree with this statement.There is a particular nick that "collects" games from the egine room to use in correspondance games played for money.
There are two sides to this argument. I can definitely understand Chessbase's and Harvey's. They are trying to protect a franchise that has been violated by unsavory characters, and now others are exploiting for their own ends
Parent - - By Frayer (**) [us] Date 2010-12-28 19:46 Edited 2010-12-28 21:29
A report from the clone war front:
Hello everyone, this is your clone war corespondent embedded with Imperial forces in the engine room.
An all out offensive continues this week in blitz play. Many top players have had their positions overrun by Rebel forces using an insidious new weapon, renamed engines.
Within the last 12 days the Rebels have deployed the newest *** into the filed. This new engine was simultaneously released in three different camouflage motifs Rybka 4, Stockfish, and Critter, it has been devastating traditional Imperil forces.
Intelligence from from the Imperil Clone Police tell me it is now impossible to distinguish a renamed engine from a genuine one.
The sophistication of these new renames is extraordinary. One intelligence officer told me “Well, what do you expect, you have a guy that got a four year degree from MIT 10 years ago going up against prominent PHDs from Moscow University and Cal Tech.”
But in this reporters eyes the real question is, will imperial SYSOPs round up large numbers of players and send them to the detention camps, or will they see the futility of their present course and go back to free and open engine play.
More later from your embedded reporter here in the PlayChess Engine Room:
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (****) Date 2010-12-28 19:56
But we do know your new nick say goodbye to it :-)
Parent - By M ANSARI (****) [kw] Date 2010-12-28 21:26
LOL :razz:
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2010-12-28 21:30
thumbs up
Parent - By Neptune (**) [us] Date 2010-12-29 06:06
If the cloneing would stop, innocent players would'nt be attacked.
- - By chess (*) [de] Date 2010-12-28 20:37
Every chess programmer has a look at the source code of other chess programs for new ideas. But there is a difference in just copying code from another program or "borrowing" some ideas from freely distributed source code. Who would know about alpha-beta-search, quiesence-search, null-move-pruning, hash-tables, bit-boards, table-bases, etc., if example code would not be available on the net? No chess programmer invented the wheel for himself. I don't want to start another debate about clones. But as long as there is no evidence for copied code, there is no reason to call it a clone. The problem is some chess programmers make a living out of chess programming and the strong free engines are a threat for them. As I said in other threads, the focus of engine programming should move from strength to usability, otherwise the whole business will face a severe crisis.
Parent - - By Neptune (**) [us] Date 2010-12-28 20:45
It already is a server crisis.Let me ask you this Harvey straight out ,do you want an engine room?
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (****) Date 2010-12-28 20:51
I am not in crisis am sorry if you are.
Parent - - By Neptune (**) [us] Date 2010-12-28 21:19
According to the response to this post i'm not alone.
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (****) Date 2010-12-28 21:23
maybe Rybka forum mods can arrange therapy.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2010-12-28 21:40
I just wanted to remove that thread, but the thing with the post by frayer is too hilarious to be removed
Parent - By Harvey Williamson (****) Date 2010-12-28 21:43
lol agreed.
Parent - - By chess (*) [de] Date 2010-12-28 21:56
So this is what you call an open discussion? A forum is a place to share your thoughts. If this forum is only for praising Rybka, it should be said in the forum rules.
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (****) Date 2010-12-28 21:59
Felix and I have decided to offer anti clone therapy $50 an hour, sounds like you should sign up?
Parent - - By chess (*) [de] Date 2010-12-28 22:04
And I will be dispossessed of all evil clones? Now that sounds fair...
Parent - - By Neptune (**) [us] Date 2010-12-28 22:07
Great ill just wait till chess gets his,clone his nick, and get it for free.
Parent - By Neptune (**) [us] Date 2010-12-28 22:09
o and by the way physician heal thyself.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2010-12-29 01:35
It's called the rules
Check:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]It's the same misconception as people thinking they have a right to access playchess. There are rules everywhere and if you don't like them... too bad :)
Parent - - By Miroslav Kvíčala (**) [cz] Date 2010-12-29 06:58
If I pay for playchess access I can use even Usama Bin Ladin engine and it is my decision. And Chessbase have to to respect it. Rybka didn´t almost no progress in last 3 years and that is the result. If something was not moral it was sell of R4 with elementary endgame bugs (known for years) an very small strength increase.
Parent - By Dr.Wael Deeb (***) [jo] Date 2010-12-29 08:32
Can you provide a download link for Osama Bin Ladin chess engine
?
Parent - By Harvey Williamson (****) Date 2010-12-29 08:47
It is your decision to use it for sue but my decision will be to kick you out.
Previous Next Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / Clones ,Clones everywhere!! (770 hits)
